I woke up this morning and checked my email, only to discover that I had a new comment to an old post - one that I wrote over a year ago, shortly after I first started Deaf Pagan Crossroads.
It’s a response to my post titled “On Being Deaf…and Pagan” - a post I wrote about my struggles of being “doubly marginalized,” so to speak. In this post I wrote about my experiences of being a Deaf person in the Pagan Community, and a Pagan in the Deaf Community. It generated a considerable amount of interest when it was posted and received quite a few comments. If you haven’t read it (or at least not recently), I encourage you to go back and give it another look.
Although this post still gets the occasional reader, it hasn’t received any comments in some time… until today. Allow me to quote this guy’s words:
Psychologically speaking, the response you get is the response you caused. It seems that, wherever you go, you’re pointing out your differences instead of similarities. With Pagans, you’re irritating them by saying you’re deaf and with the deaf you’re irritating them by saying you’re Pagan.
I have a pretty good feeling that you would do the same thing if you went to a meeting of deaf Pagans: you’d shove your firewalking down their throat and they’d accuse you of being “too firewalking” for their taste.
If you want a better relationship with others, blend in rather than sticking out. When you point out how different you are, people automatically assume you’re implying you’re better than them.
Hmmmm… interesting.
Now, I’ve always maintained a policy of allowing people to say what they wish to say here, whether I agree with it or not. With very few exceptions, I have pretty much left negative comments on the blog, removing them only when I felt they were rude, offensive, disrespectful… or just too damn stupid. On occasion I might respond to a comment with my own thoughts - or allow my readers to share their thoughts (I have a few I can pretty much count on to do so!)
Yes, I have some thoughts on this guy’s comment.
But… I’m more curious to know what YOU think.
So tell me, readers…
What do you think?
Does this guy have a point? Do you think there is some truth to what he’s saying?
Now, let’s take this beyond merely me and my being Deaf, Pagan, and a Firewalker.
This guy says
“If you want a better relationship with others, blend in rather than sticking out.”
What do you think? Is this is the answer? Is “blending in” the way to create those better relationships?
“When you point out how different you are, people automatically assume you’re implying you’re better than them.”
Is this in fact what happens when we point out our differences? Do people automatically make that assumption?
Whether I agree or disagree with this guy’s statements; as I said, I do find his comments… interesting. I’m looking beyond just his response to me and thinking about how this would apply in general - for example, a Deaf person in the company of hearing people. Should we keep our mouths (and hands) shut and attempt to “blend in” so people will like us better, or speak up (and sign out!) and acknowledge our differences?
I’m really curious to know what others think, so please do post a comment and share your thoughts!
~ Ocean
This sculpture shows the sign for "connect"...and that is what Deaf Pagan Crossroads is all about - making connections. Connections between Deafhood and Paganism, connections between the Deaf Community and the Hearing Community, connections between myself as the writer and you as the reader. I hope you will take the time to read my various posts, some of which are listed below. Welcome to the Crossroads, and I hope you make some connections here!
My only response is to say…
“Vive la difference!”
Ahhh… it really all depends on our comfort level in our “differences”. Some are more extrovert and others more introvert in being different…
I have noticed if some people are proud of themselves, they’d talk about their accomplishments. Whereas other people might feel more humble (or embarrassed?)
As I said before, it depends on a person’s comfort level. If you feel comfortable in sharing about your accomplishments with other people, kuddos. There will always be some people who’d feel inspired by you while others might feel turned off.
However, I can say this much… we the deaf minority usually make efforts to blend in the hearing world, with the aid of the devices (CART, emails, TDDs, interpeter, VRS, etc.)
As for social circles… it depends on a person’s stress level… in response to what is called “peer pressure”. :o)
So if I understand this guy correctly…
When we make an effort to express our own individuality and show ourselves for being the unique one-of-a-kind persons that we are, we are just cramming “whatever” down everyone’s throats… when in fact we should just be making an effort to conform to the status quo.
I have a problem with that.
I would like to believe that this world would be a much better place if and when we start embracing those differences instead of demanding you prove your similarities.
Being different isn’t being better; it’s simply adding a little more color to this world.
Deaf people blending in with hearing people - does that mean we the Deaf are expected to speak, lipread, and use cochlear implants?
What about hearing people who come to the Deaf event - should they be expected to turn off voice and use ASL so they blend in?
I’m speaking as a hearing person “blending in” with the deaf world. Inasmuch as I would want to, and I really made tremendous effort in doing so, I cannot help it when the deaf considers me as an “outsider”, at least in my experience with the community here in the Philippines. I don’t speak in behalf of communities in other countries.
I have been with the deaf for almost 20 years. I have learned sign language and most of the deaf who have met me for the first time were impressed by my sign language skill. Some of them have even mistaken me as a deaf. But I always “stick out” especially when I defend them against insulting words and mockery. They cannot hear it so they won’t get hurt. But it is I who get hurt. Oftentimes I defend the deaf.
One example is the story I wrote in my blog.
http://deafphilippines.wordpress.com/2008/04/30/on-being-deaf-and-uneducated/
My two cents opinion, “A deaf whether he uses CI, can speak, can lipread is still deaf to me.”
hmmmm….as a person who has been known to stick her feet in her mouth (yes, usually both at once…) I hesitated to reply… but, I actually have an opinion on this that I think I can safely post. LOL
I am not deaf, and do not spend time with the deaf. In fact, Osh is the only deaf person I know, and it is through her that the struggles of the deaf community have become known to me. I like Osh… she is opinionated and not afraid to speak her mind. Sometimes, in fact, she seems harsh. BUT, that’s because nobody speaks their mind these days. Everybody tries to blend in, because it is easier, and more comfortable. I used to be so proud to be the crazy girl in school who shunned fashion, and sewed my own outfits. Now? I wear what most everyone else is wearing. Why? Because it’s easier. I do miss being that girl, though. Sometimes, I will revert back to her, but a job like mine requires proper clothing. LOL
As far as being “too Pagan”…. well, I think some people just are uncomfortable with a person who is actually comfortable with their choice of “religion” or spirituality. Where I live, Christians abound, and they aren’t afraid to tell you their point of view. Osh isn’t any different, it just happens to be that she’s Pagan.
I think (just my opinion) that people are uncomfortable with people who are outspoken because 1) they wish they could be like that, and 2) they are ashamed to admit that they agree with you.
I think I kept my foot out of my mouth… maybe.. LOL
I think it’s entirely how one presents one’s differences. I feel like I am an outsider a lot of the time in my own community because I am a Buddhist, a vegetarian, and practice yoga–all things that around here, no one in the community IS.
We should appreciate who we are and not feel hesitant to share that.
As far as how others feel, in my own experience, I only feel bothered if I am getting the sense that the other person is telling me things in such a way that they think I would be more satisfied with my life if I practiced living the way they practice living.
Never got that sense from you, Ocean–I think you’re open-minded!
My ‘two cents’ is this : ’screw ‘em if they can’t take a joke’. I’m not saying that paganism, Deafness or firewalking is a ‘joke’, but rather people will believe what they want to believe.
I have the same problem with the GLBT community. There has been a huge outcry over the past oh…ten years or so…about TOLERANCE vs. ACCEPTANCE. An article published in the ADVOCATE a few months ago demanded that GLBT ‘not be second class citizens’ by ‘rejecting mere tolerance’ and be ‘fully accepted’ by society at large.
Bullshit. Nobody is required to ‘accept’ anything. That is the beauty of America, Paganism and spirituality at large. We all choose what we wish to believe. We support/encourage those viewpoints we wish to perpetuate. We find that in life which enriches us on a personal level.
But when confronted by a situation/belief/modus operandi that we do not find palatable, we don’t have to accept anything; we do have to tolerate it. We must because that’s the beauty of the world (universe/spirit) - that there IS difference. It is this difference that makes the world the place it is.
So one person is into firewalking. Great! Live your dream. Go for your own gusto. Another is into lesbian separatism. You go, girl! Christianity? Pray away!
But remember, we do not live in a vacuum.
The goal of the Great Spirit is not to have all of us believing the same thing (Christian / Pagan / Jewish / GLBT) but in HOW WE TREAT EACH OTHER when we confront those who are different than us.
So Christian: stop trying to Christian-ize everyone. Hearing folks: stop with the Cochlear Implants already. Politically Correct folks: stop trying to make everyone erase “HE/SHE” from the English language. Instead, learn how to respect and tolerate these differences of opinions. Learn how to understand that there is a divine design behind these differences.
In seeing others ‘defects’ as an interesting characteristic, we open ourselves up to the opportunity of understanding life with depth, meaning and dimension that we never thought of; that we are incapable of doing by ourselves.
And who knows - we just may find a new dimension within ourselves.
Ocean, I feel this person doesn’t know you at all. I have met you and I never felt you’ve tried to be divisive in talking about the white elephant that everyone knows is in the room. I feel by bringing these thoughts and feelings to a public forum you are trying to incite thoughtful , insight and meaningful dialogue between the Deaf culture and those of us that hear and you are forging new relationships and educating those of who’ve had limited experience with the Deaf culture. That goes also goes to the being pagan within the Deaf culture (i believe so anyway).
Anyway keep up the good work!!!!!!!!!
Interesting thought… blend in… It is difficult to impossible to blend into a hearing world completely. And let’s face it a deaf person who really tries to be hearing is then chastised or shunned by the deaf community. A pretty damn fine line, if you ask me. Pagans are more likely to blend, which usually means residing in the broom closet, but what is the point?
Should we all conform and be tiny little robots? does the old phrase of “any color you want as long as it is black” have a familiar ring? That really doesn’t appeal to me much.
Yes, I think it is true that people are uncomfortable when confronted with others who are different. I am not sure that it is because they think those others believe themselves better. Rather I think they are uncomfortable because not enough of us stand up and admit we are different.
Different is good. Our culture tells us it is okay to be different, even when individuals think otherwise, if only up to a point. It is okay to have different hair, different clothes, different political view, different hobbies, even different abilities (as long as you can communicate with the majority!). Why should it not be okay to have a different beliefs, different religion, or a different communication style?
I think the problem is with the majority who are afraid of those who are different; not with the few Deaf or pagan folks with are willing to embrace who they are.
I didn’t know my comment would be that well-received.
Here’s a little clarification. In no way should we be ashamed of what we are of what we do. However, in most cases I will keep my hexagram safely under my shirt and many people I know will not even be aware that I am fascinated by the tarot. I understand that my interests are shunned by many people and, since I’m doing it for myself, I’ll keep it to myself and those open-minded friends I have.
If somebody would mention that the tarot is a bunch of bull, I’d politely say something like “I remember being sceptical about it at first, but now I realize the positive impact it had upon my life”. Then I’d leave it at that - I can’t convince a closed-minded unbeliever and I don’t want to waste my energy on those who refuse to take a small step towards my world-view. It’s about finding and maintaining a delicate balance of not disclosing our special interests that are controversial to the general population and, at the same time, not allowing others to trample all over our beliefs.
@JD: I agree about embracing differences. But the “embracing” part has to happen voluntarily, on the level of each individual, not a group. If you go to a group and point out your differences, you will cause resistance. It would seem logical that 50, 100 or 10000 people saying “I’m pagan” would make people accept paganism more, but in practice that’s not the case. All we can do is make ourselves more tolerant and hope others will follow along. If they don’t, we can always find better company.
People will accept your differences more easily if you don’t make a big deal out of them. Draw them in rather than sticking out.
Gee… what did that guy have for breakfast?!
~ LaRonda
If we all celebrate how alike we are, we will never talk about our differences. Which pretty much sums up a major problem in our country now–we don’t know how to talk about our differences. We blog with like-thinking bloggers, we sit with like-thinking workers at lunch, and pretty soon, we’ve divided into “them” and “us.” And “us” is good and “them” is bad.
We have fallen into a pit of protecting our views instead of curiosity about others.
When we show up in a group that is not like us, we stand out. In our current culture, we have labeled some public discussions among strangers taboo– sex, politics, religion. In Europe, these topics are not taboo, but the rules of discussing them are different. In Europe, each person is expected to discuss his/her point of view backed by real information or facts, without attaching personal judgement to the opposite view (you are wrong, you are going to hell, etc.) That way, facts, research, and information can get brought up and looked at from different perspectives.
Your reader made some big assumptions–that you point out your differences, that you try to “force” them on others, that you feel “superior” to others.
How different this would have been if your commenter had replaced that judgement with curiosity–”Do you feel comfortable with being different?” “How do you explain your viewpoint to others in a group without feeling defensive?” and “What beliefs did you explore and not choose to get to what you did choose?”
I think his comments say a lot more about him than about you.
I want to know what his definition of “better relationship” means. Because if he means less educational, less understanding, more status quo, more repression, I think he’s right.
I don’t think he gave you or others who do the same enough credit when he said, “When you point out how different you are, people automatically assume you’re implying you’re better than them.” What happened to sharing personal information for the purpose of understanding each other?
Besides, if people are just going to jump the gun and think I think I’m better than them without giving it a second thought, then I think they may be right anyway.
So, yeah. I guess I agree with him. Although I doubt he’d agree with me.
Better Relationships: Superficial ones?
I think sometimes it takes sticking your neck out to voice the truths of your belief system, or simply your own being. In the case of being deaf, I highly dissuade others from being submissive to the hearing norms we are expected to work with.
Compassion must be had on both sides.
If we keep blending in,..we cease spread an awareness of evident truths and in the process nothing is shared but everything is black and white.
Life, at least in my own perspective, is about colors. Seeing things for what they are. True colors.
Better relationships, as I’ve experience are ones that you can rely on to improve and expand these truths, your truths, our truths. If we did little to support how we really feel, we’d be weltering in a sea of spiritual stangnance and the lies that abound would furthermore engulf us.
The more truth you apply to your being, the less there is the expectation of blending in and greater is the expansion of our awareness of the many colors.
I love the word compassion and the meaning it has. I may not be the most compassionate person in the world because I’ve had my own battles with the superficial, but in my sharing of my truths, sticking out, I have harvested wonderful allies of that compassion that we believe should be widespread.
Deep and down, I believe we’re already the same,..maybe some actually stick their necks out to point out how different we are because they (the normalites, the majority, the mainstream) have long forgotten that we’re really all the same.
Sleep.
Eat.
Breathe.
and yes, go to the bathroom.
We live together.
Our differences help us understand the colors of living.
There are many rays from the sun with no two alike, yet they are all derived from the same source.
I love my wife’s bumper sticker which reads:
“Well-behaved women rarely make history.”
I think that could sum it up for me.
Maybe I’m too radical.
Maybe I’m too crazy.
Maybe I am.
But Hello anyway…
Good Stuff Ocean.
Thank you.
I think it all boils down to how we handle our differences and what we think of them. It’s a fine line to walk between being the “Same” as everyone else or at least appearing that way. At the same time, pagans have a history of having a hard time finding and retaining our voice. So when do we appear “different” and when do we not? It’s a close call which I don’t think very many people can make flawlessly. Kind of like the dilemma of being a Jew in Nazi Germany. When you stand out and when don’t you? Definitely food for thought.
I never feel quite right with people until they understand my deafness. It’s such an integral part of who I am. In order to spend any quality time with me, they need to understand how I communicate. Too Deaf?
I’m not a religious person– but I am spiritual and have my own ideas about God. I feel most comfortable around people who understand how I feel about religion and who respect my views/beliefs. I do not expect others to agree necessarily. I only want them to understand that my spiritual beliefs are as valid as theirs. Some people simply can’t accept that. You know, I’ve seen this at both ends of the spectrum– There are atheists who push their atheism at others and try to make you feel like an idiot for have any spiritual beliefs at all. Then there are Christians who will damn you to hell if you don’t practice your religion exactly their way. I believe we all find our own paths to God– or not. If Paganism does works for you, then that’s OK.
No comment on your firewalking. I didn’t read your article. If you agreed it was self-promoting, then it probably was. I guess we all promote ourselves from time to time. Is this a crime?
So - I’m not deaf, pagan or intolerant -but….
I see the point. Sometimes it’s easier to build relationships, starting with the “commonalities”, and not emphasizing the differences. I started reading your blog, not because it was about Paganism, but because of your posts on deafness. That was the commonality - not that I am deaf, but that was my interest.
Discrimination is hard to discern, as is whether some one is being offensive, or self- promoting, versus being open and sharing themselves.
Hi–
Very interesting comments all!
I’ll comment briefly on it. I’ve read it only once and tried not to analyze it too much.
The beauty of us as humans is that we’re diverse. I LOVE diversity and all that it means.
We live at a time when members of groups that were once marginalized are now sitting down at the table and joining those who have enjoyed privilege.
We are living at a time when self-identification is important - to let others know what and who we are, to build bridges between communities where there were once tremendous gaps, and in our diversity, find our common humaness.
Some people have been very hurt by others who did not respect their differences. Some have managed to reclaim their dignity rather that wallow in anger and despair for their entire lives (there are those people too). The “survivors” wish to ensure that others know that they are proud of who they are by opening saying so to enlighten everyone that yes, deaf and gay and dyslexic and folks exist, get used to it!
Most of the differences people fight over are those they were born with - skin color, ethnicity, sexual orientation, hearing/deaf, and to a lesser extent, religion (e.g., being Jewish culturally as well as spiritually).
Maybe in a generation or two, we won’t need to do as much self identification. At least one indication of a massive shift in public option that I’ve noticed is that the younger generation really doesn’t seem to have a problem with gays and lesbians, and almost all the young people I know (I work at a community college) think gays and lesbians should have full marriage rights.
If you would have told me even 5 years ago that such a change would happen, I would have said you were crazy!
I believe in both standing out and blending in!
Yes, it IS possible!
Aloha from Honolulu,
Kevin
I believe ther’s space for everybody in this room. That’s diversity to me. There’s space for those who stand out for their diferences and there’s space for those who prefer wlking anonymously, no matter why. I am a very open person about myself, about my differences and my similarities, and I do think it’s better being like that than eternally hiding ourselves for fear of not being accepted. But I also know a few people who are inside different closets for different reasons and they’re still nice people. Maybe I’m being naive, but let’s take some deep breaths? Please don’t throw me in the water for this!
Kisses, bright blessings, Nydia.
[...] ocean1025 Not too long ago, I published a post here at the Crossroads entitled “Too Deaf? Too Pagan? Too Firewalking?” This post was written as a response to a comment which was left on yet another one of my posts here [...]
Read your latest post….I have to admit I agree with the guy….only because I’m coming from a long ago “question authority” time. For me, I finally realized that the way to work the system, is to get into the system and work my way out. I think that’s the guy’s perspective….and just my opinion. Hearing peeps are funny, they don’t care to mingle with things that are different. So of course we have to pick and choose who we want to hang with…
Hope all is well with you!
as a hearing mother of a deaf pagan Daughter i would so disagree. being different is what makes us who we are. Maybe some people take it wrong because you are happy with who you are and what to share it the world. It is important for us to remember everyone has their own path it is not our job to try and change that. so maybe some people need to remember that and learn to share in your joys as well as their own. just because you have learn to express your joy and self pride doesn’t mean you are shoving it down their throats.
lol they would hate my daughter for sure she goes around telling everyone they need to learn sign lol.
I have to say i have seen many deaf people who never learn self pride. so you go girl and know you are very special. The Goddess is watching you with pride as you share your joy with others.